Dave Douglas Trumpet Interview

Welcome to the show notes for Episode #138 of The Other Side of the Bell – A Trumpet Podcast. This episode features trumpeter Dave Douglas. Listen to or download the episode below:

About Dave Douglas

Dave Douglas episode links

Website: davedouglas.com

Greenleaf Music: greenleafmusic.com

Greenleaf Music on Bandcamp: glmstore.bandcamp.com

Instagram: @davedouglas

Facebook: @davedouglasmusic

Alloy album page: https://greenleafmusic.com/artists/davedouglas/alloy/

Alloy pre-order: https://davedouglas.bandcamp.com/album/alloy
OR
Apple Music/Spotify: https://lnk.to/alloy

Alloy album trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmt_bdSrRao

Podcast Credits

• “A Room with a View“ – composed and performed by Howie Shear
• Audio Engineer – Ted Cragg
• Cover Photo Credit – John Abbott
• Podcast Host – John Snell

Transcript

Please note, this transcript is automatically generated. It may contain spelling and other errors. If you would like to assist us in editing or translating this transcript, please let us know at info@bobreeves.com.

[00:00:00]

JOHN SNELL: Hello, and welcome to The Other Side of the Bell, a podcast dedicated to everything trumpet, brought to you by Bob Reeves Brass. We’ll help you take your trumpet plane to the next level. I’m John Snell, trumpet specialist here at Bob Reeves Brass, and I’ll be your host for this episode. Joining me today is trumpeter composer, educator, and entrepreneur, Dave Douglas.

We’ll get to Dave’s interview here in a moment after a word from our sponsor and some trumpet news.

[00:01:00]

JOHN SNELL: Well, here we are in the middle of August already. I can’t believe it. Uh, my son just started band camp here, uh, ready to go into high school [00:02:00] marching band. So school’s getting back into session here in the US and probably, uh, folks in Europe are coming back from their holidays and getting back to, uh, the swing of things, so to speak, Finish up 2025. Man, these years are just flying by. I mean, it’s crazy to think we’ve been doing this podcast for 13 years and, uh, funny enough, my guest today, uh, started his podcast, within a week of when the other side of the Bell started. Uh, so great minds think alike. So we’ll talk to Dave about that a little bit coming up here.

Uh, not a whole lot of news here. We got, um, some great horns coming in from Shires and Van Lar, in stock. Uh, if you can see behind me, we have a great selection of guard bags. if you’re looking for a guard bag, particularly the triples, we have a lot of triples right now. We have some singles, actually, you know, we have everything.

We have wheelies, singles, doubles, triples. the only thing we’re out of now, I believe is the, uh. Nine series, the trumpet and flu will double. so those, I think we have one left. [00:03:00] Uh, but I, I think those are pretty easy to find from the other dealers. But if you’re looking for a single double triple or one of the quad wheelie guard bags, we have them in stock.

And I think we have a fiberglass double. It’s not on the website. So if any podcast listeners are interested in the, the fiberglass series. From Guard, shoot me an email and, uh, you can pick those rare, hard to find fiberglass guard bags, on the mouthpiece front, I mean, we’re just cranking away. We just shipped a big order to Japan, to Joy Brass out there, and we’ll hopefully be visiting them later this year as well as a bunch of, uh, mouthpieces over to Europe.

So thank you, thank you, thank you. I know we have listeners worldwide and, uh, some of you are customers, some of you of you are not. But if you are a customer, thank you so much for, uh, supporting our business, and because you do that, you, uh, support this podcast. Uh, so if you have a, a.

Equipment need, you’re interested in New horn, a new case, a new mute, or uh, you just don’t know what you [00:04:00] need, but you’re having issues with your equipment. Feel free to reach out to us. I had a great customer this morning. He was a doctor. 49 years in a private practice. Can you imagine that? this client, uh.

Just dedicated his life to helping, people as a doctor. very inspirational individual. I won’t get into all his personal details, but, uh, I really enjoyed talking to him and just makes music for fun. Had a band back in high school and college that he ran, played trumpet and has been coming back for four or five years now.

And, uh, it was really, really a cool experience. Getting to work with him, uh, helped make me, I mean, man, he beautiful sound. Loved making music, no interest at all in playing for people or anyone, just other than his own enjoyment. But he said, you know, he loves the sound of Charlie Spiva and uh, bunny Barrigan and, you know, just those, those great trumpet sounds from the past.

So it was really cool working with him. And, uh, you know, a number of times he said, well, you know, I’m just an amateur. I’m not that good, this and that, you know, and I said, look, we’re all the same. We’re all musicians [00:05:00] and some of us, uh, like making music just for ourselves. Some of us like making music, uh, for other people, and some of us like doing that for money or not.

But when it comes down to it, we’re all musicians. We all have the same goal in mind. And, uh, uh, you know, the, the satisfaction and the fulfillment of knowing we’ve gotten that client, uh, one step closer to their goal. Uh. Means, uh, means the world to us. So anyway, I thought I’d share that story. I don’t say a lot about, uh, some of the interactions I have here.

Maybe I’ll do that in the future. but that’s enough, uh, for today. I know I have a wonderful guest today and Dave Douglas, uh, talking about a guy who does everything, and has changed, the face of trumpet plane and. Jazz and music and how we describe things, which we’ll get into. Uh, but before I get to, uh, Dave’s interview, um, I do wanna mention this is an audio only.

We’ve had some video ones in the past. so, uh, if you’re watching this on YouTube, don’t turn it off because you can’t. See, Dave and I, you can imagine us talking to each other. Um, but uh, you can listen to [00:06:00] the full interview on YouTube and obviously if you listen to this in your car or on the treadmill, you’re not missing anything.

Anyway. So this, uh, this podcast, uh, this interview will be audio only. Okay. Let’s get right to my interview with Dave Douglas.​

Dave Douglas is a New York based trumpeter composer, educator, and entrepreneur who celebrated for his stylistic range and creative depth of work. Leader of more than 75 recordings and composer of over 500 published works. Dave has earned a Doris Duke Artist Award, Guggenheim Fellowship, Aaron Copeland Award, and two Grammy nominations. His current projects include the rotating ensemble gifts, the co-led band sound prints with Joe Lano and numerous genre spanning collaborations such as overcome and if there are mountains.

A sought after composer. He has received commissions from major arts institutions worldwide with recent premieres, including facts and fictions for alarm roll sound, and psycho [00:07:00] pumps for ensemble sticks. Douglass is a co-founder and president of the Festival of New Trumpet Music on on faculty at the New School and Mans, and beginning a two year residency at Malmo Academy of Music in 2025.

In 2005, he founded Greenleaf Music, an influential independent label publishing platform, and home to his acclaimed podcast, A Noise From The Deep. And now without further ado, here’s my interview with Dave Douglas.​

Well, I’m so excited today to have joining me on the other side of the bell, Dave Douglas, all the way from New York. Dave, how’s it going?

DAVE DOUGLAS: Hey, how are you? Thanks for having me.

JOHN SNELL: Oh, absolute honor. And also fellow podcaster. it’s great to have you on and talk. let’s start with the trumpet, ’cause you do so many different things. let’s start with how you started with the trumpet, but you started on piano, correct? First was your first

instrument.

DAVE DOUGLAS: you’ve read my Wikipedia page and so that’s good. But yeah it is true. I did start with [00:08:00] piano lessons as so many musicians do. At least in my era.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: think it’s different now and we can talk about that, you know, education for young musicians. a lot. But you know, I had your typical classical style piano lessons and I, I sort of hated them because I, I don’t know why I can’t explain this, but I was always sort of improvising the beginning.

Like, I would play what was on the page and then my attitude would be, whoa, I just played it. Why would I play it that way again? Which, yeah,

JOHN SNELL: And, and we’re,

DAVE DOUGLAS: doesn’t go over big with the classical piano teacher. So actually it’s kind of a, a funny story. My

JOHN SNELL: yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: was an amateur musician, played a lot of different instruments, and he played kind of what I would call like family parlor piano, light standards and holiday songs.

And he learned them from his [00:09:00] mother. And when I was seven. he was always sort of buying instruments. He played banjo and guitar and baroque recorders and kinds of Appalachian bluegrass type instruments. When I was seven, he was at a yard sale and he saw a trombone for sale and he bought it thinking he would teach himself trombone, and I would be the accompanist because I had now been playing piano for two years.

hating the piano lessons as I did within one afternoon, the trombone was mine, and I graduated to being a horn player, which allowed me to quit the piano lessons. And I did play trombone two years until I was nine. You know, during that time I was too small to reach all the positions.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Oh. But I loved playing a horn.

So when I was nine, I wised up in my infinite 9-year-old [00:10:00] wisdom and changed to trumpet. Part of it was that by that time I was in the public school band, which played standard fair. You know what you play in elementary school, middle school band.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah,

DAVE DOUGLAS: But all my friends played trumpet and they always had the melody and the trombones had the long notes.

And I was like, I wanna play the melody. What am, what am I doing? Wasting my time with these long notes over here?

JOHN SNELL: Isn’t that interesting? Like at such a young age you have that connection, one to improvising and that kind of curiosity. And also wanting to play. Play the lead lines. play the

melodies,

DAVE DOUGLAS: play the melody but also, you know, music as a social activity. The fact that my friends were getting the good parts

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: was sort of like, I want to hang out with my friends,

JOHN SNELL: Yeah,

and

DAVE DOUGLAS: Yeah, and that’s when I started trumpet and it was it’s been a long road. It wasn’t easy for me, the trumpet.

And even though I [00:11:00] had private lessons and I came through middle school and high school playing the technique was always a, a challenge for me. And as I started listening to music. As an engaged listener, let’s say around 12, 13, 14 years old. what happened to me musically was that I was listening to a lot of modern jazz. I gravitated towards it ’cause my father had a pretty broad record collection. And he had the Smithsonian collection of classic jazz, which was so astutely chosen Martin Williams in the late sixties, early seventies.

So last few sides of that collection was Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane and Thelonious Monk and Miles Davis and Eric Doey. Tracks that still live with me in my musical [00:12:00] memory

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: even now. So I was playing trumpet in band and I had lessons, but I was also listening to this music where I wasn’t thinking about the trumpet at all.

And in retrospect, I sort of feel like maybe that was the challenge for me, chops wise. I wasn’t listening to music where I was thinking, oh, I wanna play like that. My listening was completely unconnected to practicing and being a horn player.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: It wasn’t until years later that I realized, oh, you know what?

I play trumpet that recording has trumpet, and maybe I ought to think about connecting those two things. It wasn’t really until many years later that I made that connection,

JOHN SNELL: Interesting. So like your approach or your training was just purely pedagogical, you know, there wasn’t a connection to a musical outcome or,

DAVE DOUGLAS: basically. Yes.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: and then [00:13:00] as high school came in and I started playing in stage band, and so there were situations where there might be little improvised solos, but it was nothing like the maelstrom of Ornette Coleman Free Jazz, or Cecil Taylor Enter evening or. As my listening, expanded Gentle, giant or um, Zappa or kinds of progressive rock and soul.

Stevie Wonder was just a fascination and modern classical music. I loved Ior Stravinsky, even

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I, I didn’t know anything about it. I loved Patricia and I loved Lida, but I never years later realized, oh my God, that’s like an incredible trumpet solo that’s written in there, you know?

then I would hear people when I got to conservatory, I’d hear people playing it, and I’d go. Why are you playing that? From that thing that I had on a [00:14:00] record when I was 12 years old, like I, I didn’t have anyone in my life who pointed out this is that, and that is this. There was one jazz educator,

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: pianist named Tommy Gallant, who showed me how to play Voicings on the piano little bit about writing, and who I think in retrospect, you know, very carefully didn’t point me towards any particular trumpet players.

I just took ’em all in and didn’t really think about it very much,

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: think maybe as a composer that has given me some openness, I, I, I don’t know.

JOHN SNELL: Fascinating. So you bring up, you know, going into conservatory, was that a easy choice for you? Did you even though you sort, you were kind of struggling with the

technique of the trumpet, obviously surrounding yourself with music, inspired by music was a path in music. An easy choice.

DAVE DOUGLAS: It was an obvious choice. I, I couldn’t think of anything else that I wanted to do, and I made the choice [00:15:00] early without any logical sense of career path or whether I was any good or music was just what I did.

JOHN SNELL: hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I went to a a fairly elite high school where everyone was applying to Harvard and Yale and Brown and the Ivys, I only applied to one school, and the advisors were, you know, I had good grades. They were like, you know, you could really be somebody. And I, I was like, yeah, I could. I’m applying to Berkeley College of Music.

I didn’t have a safety school. I didn’t, you know, that was it. if I hadn’t gotten in, I don’t know what I would’ve done. But I did get in and

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: straight from high school to Boston.

JOHN SNELL: why did you choose Berkeley?

DAVE DOUGLAS: My high school was in New England, and so I had been, during my senior year, I’d been going in once a week to have private lessons in Boston. I knew Boston a little bit. I knew some of the musicians who were going to [00:16:00] Berkeley. But at that time, and, and this is I got there in, let’s see, 81. At that time, it was sort of the place to go to do what I was envisioning doing.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: 1981. When I got there, the Man with the Horn, the Miles Davis Comeback album, been released month before I got to Berkeley.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: So everyone I knew was obsessed with that record, and we were playing the tunes from that we were learning the earlier repertoire at the same time. But I felt like I was stepping into a world of people who were interested in current music and, pushing things forward.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: There was a detour that I didn’t mention that got me there, which is my junior year in high school. So 14, 15. I did a school year abroad in Barcelona in Spain,

JOHN SNELL: Wow.[00:17:00]

DAVE DOUGLAS: and it completely changed my outlook. I, I, I. I had never met any my age that were interested in the music I was interested in

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: playing.

And I got to Spain and I fell in with this group of people my age, 15, 16 year olds who were playing standards and playing original music. And that was when the first time I felt like, oh, these are my these are people my age interested in Art Blakey and Weather Report and Miles Davis and playing original music.

So when I came back to my high school in New Hampshire for senior year, I was a very different per, you know, I had this new sense of not only the experience of the world, but also of what I wanted to do creatively

JOHN SNELL: Wow.

DAVE DOUGLAS: that was sending me towards Berkeley

JOHN SNELL: And that’s, so, and that’s the, foundation you had going into Berkeley then? [00:18:00] I mean, you’d stepped out of your comfort zone, traveled the world, literally met people that inspired you, and, and it sounds like that’s the kinda life you wanted to live, you know, or that kind of career you wanted to have, so to speak.

DAVE DOUGLAS: A

JOHN SNELL: You know,

DAVE DOUGLAS: life.

JOHN SNELL: creative life, creating your own music, surrounding yourself with like-minded

creatives, things like that. Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: making new things, being a little unsettled as to the definitions of things.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: What is classical and what is pop, and what is jazz? That was always an open for me. An open question,

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. And what are labels anyway, you know, the deeper question, we try to

define things in music that yeah, but that, that’ll be a whole nother podcast. Actually. You probably talk about that a lot on your podcast, talking to

the, the folks you do.

DAVE DOUGLAS: to a lot of different artists

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I try not to get into and genre and, you know, categorization.

but we talk a lot about process and so it does bring up the fact that [00:19:00] a lot of creative artists have had to confront or think about, you know, where does my music fit

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: what does this all mean?

And, the big questions.

JOHN SNELL: The, the

deeper stuff.

DAVE DOUGLAS: instead of nothing?

JOHN SNELL: Exactly.

DAVE DOUGLAS: so we don’t wanna go there.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Oh yeah. We can, yeah, we can get there. And I do want to deviate from the timeline a little bit because obviously we’re talking about your, youth now looking back with the context and also the teaching experience you’ve had over the last, you know, decades. Yeah,

DAVE DOUGLAS: I want to go. I want to go there with you, but I feel like I’ll forget if I don’t put a bookmark in

JOHN SNELL: yeah, of course. Go

for it.

DAVE DOUGLAS: that I was even at this time, by the time I got to Berkeley, I was still an atrocious trumpet player, but we’ll need to

JOHN SNELL: Okay,

DAVE DOUGLAS: there.

JOHN SNELL: yeah, w

with when,

DAVE DOUGLAS: the woods,

JOHN SNELL: well, and, and with that being said, so now looking back at, with the context that you have of your life and as a teacher what would either you have done different or an advice to a private

instructor who had a student like yourself,

DAVE DOUGLAS: Wow.

JOHN SNELL: how [00:20:00] would you have connected? Young Dave

to the music, you know, connecting the pedagogy, the trumpet playing side of things, to the inspiration you get from the music you’re listening to. What would you have done differently, or how would you advise a teacher to have a student like you teach differently?

DAVE DOUGLAS: Wow. That that is a, that’s a really deep question. That’s a really good question. And I’ve thought about it a lot and of course I don’t, I don’t think there’s any simple answer when you ask a deep question like that.

JOHN SNELL: True. Yeah. Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: in ways, and I’m sure you have thoughts about it too, and

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: all your listeners do.

Since I’ve been involved in sharing music with a lot of young musicians, I’ve thought about that a lot. What would I have said to 19-year-old Dave? What would’ve helped? And I think that, when you started your question, I thought you were gonna say, what would you have done differently?

Having gone straight off to Berkeley and. Answers to

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: we can get to.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: [00:21:00] as what I say to all the young musicians I meet, I think is to more than them or giving them advice, it’s to ask them what do they wanna do? what are they listening to? What do they hear? how does that impact the plans that they have in the music?

And

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: career plans, it could be technique plans, it could be conceptual plans. But I feel like I was never asked what I wanted to do in the pedagogical world.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: A few great teachers did. But I find very often even with Master’s students at the new school, which is primarily the teaching that I’m doing now very often the question, what do you wanna do?

Feels like a confrontation. If a young musician has never been asked, they’ve always been told, [00:22:00] it’s a lot more comfortable just do the assignment check the box to have to sit in front of a blank piece of music paper and confront the question, well, what am I here for? what am I gonna make?

What am I creating? We know that the blank page is the biggest threat to our existence as a species. only half kidding. It’s to be in front of a blank page. And so for me. I think this might have helped me at the time to just ask, okay, how do we think about what we wanna do? allowing you, I’m giving you the permission to find your own voice and your own thing.

Let’s work on that.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: think that’s would’ve helped me a lot. And I’ve seen it help a lot of young musicians. Not everyone, I mean, we’re all different. Everyone’s gonna find a different place in the [00:23:00] field. And so there’s nothing wrong with being asked, okay, what is it you wanna do? And you say to me, I wanna be the best third trumpet player in the world.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: That’s still a creative. And that’s like, wow. I, someone said that to me. And I was like, I’ve never heard anything more specific. As a career goal, then

JOHN SNELL: yeah,

yeah,

DAVE DOUGLAS: and my hat is off.

JOHN SNELL: yeah, yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: That’s amazing that you have that figured out. So let’s work on that and, you may become the best third trumpet player in the world.

And then once you’ve done that, you may feel like, okay, there are further places I’d like to go

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: and you may discover that and let’s prepare you for that, for a life of learning

JOHN SNELL: But it gives you a why, and then once you have that why, then that connects you to, okay, well now I’m not just playing Arban, I’m playing Arban with a purpose, or I’m

playing these patterns, or, yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: teach myself to ask the important questions?

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: which [00:24:00] playing arban every day, every page, there’s important questions. It’s just, your mind there to engage?

JOHN SNELL: Fascinating.

DAVE DOUGLAS: there’s a famous saying about, was it Wilmer Wise who said make sure brain is engaged before putting mouthpiece in gear, something like that.

JOHN SNELL: That sounds like Wilmer. Sounds like Wilmer. Yeah. So, well, I mean, I saw you brought up the blank page and that, one of the threats to humanity in society. I mean, what, what tips do you, what tips do you have? Like when you face a blank page and you’re having problems to get the first.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Oh, Well, I, I try not to face the blank page. I try to go into any writing session with some ideas about what my goals are and what I’d like to do. And I make up little limitation exercises for myself that are based on the concept of whatever it is I’m trying to write, so that I’m not just staring at a blank page and waiting for the [00:25:00] muse to land on my shoulder.

DAVE DOUGLAS: You have to be ready when the muse does land on your shoulder, because if you’re not, the muse may not come again, but the muse may not come anyway. So you need to be there prepared to do the work and come up with a way to engage creativity and welcome in.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: For me that comes from defining my space.

first of all, you know, early in my career, maintaining an openness to different kinds of music and different ways of thinking about music. So, I would say that I, came up as a jazz player and learned to do that pretty well, then at a certain point in my playing career, I felt like, okay, there’s gotta be more to it than.

Going to the gig and playing the head really well. I’m playing a solo as close to Woody Shaw as I can possibly get, and then playing the head out and going home. that’s what opened [00:26:00] me up to writing and thinking, okay, this can’t be the only context, so I have to open myself up to whatever possibilities are there.

And that took me beyond the limitations of style and genre and classification, categorization, it also took me into places where I could explore ideas about writing techniques, about writing for a band of improvisers that were novel, that were new, that became something of my own practice

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: through doing it.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm. there was something more there I love it just playing the head well and playing as close to a Woody Shaw. That’s a great line. But it’s exactly it. And I, I mean, and nothing no ill will to people that are learning jazz and playing jazz, and especially in that, you know, that kind of traditional

style.

DAVE DOUGLAS: masters.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Yeah. I

mean, how many jam sessions around the, yeah. How many jam sessions around the world are you hearing that on whatever instrument those folks are [00:27:00] playing? And it’s great. It, you go and you hear Beethoven five and an orchestra play it, and that’s great and there’s great, that music’s still there, but the fact that you heard that you

conceptualize that there is more, there’s another

level.

DAVE DOUGLAS: you

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: sessions and those are really important because it’s a place where jazz players go and there’s a common language you can play with people that don’t speak same spoken language as you. And yet you both know tunes.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: you know, how the harmony works and how the form works and what’s the etiquette of how to play in a jam session ensemble.

And then I felt like, okay, those rules are great and they’re there for a reason, but in original music I felt like, okay, I’ve gotta flip the script about every one of these assumptions about the music. You know, why don’t two people ever solo at the same time? Why, theoretically, is the tempo the same all the way through the piece?

Theoretically,

JOHN SNELL: Theoretically.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Is the piece in the same key the whole time? Why do we [00:28:00] always play the written melody at the beginning followed by the improvisations? Why after. played the head, it’s usually there’s a, some horn solos, then there’s a piano solo, then maybe a bass solo and then maybe trading with the drums.

Well, why don’t the bass player and the drummer ever get to go first and have their own solos? Why don’t the horn players ever comp for the rhythm section? You know, all there’s a million, you

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: it up and the more I felt like I’m not trying to destroy anything or shoot anything down, I’m just trying to open, wow, what could I do that would be different?

And, you know, who changed my life in that regard is Booker Little. that he made called out front

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: a key point in my development. I heard it late at night on a drive home from a gig, and I realized that he was asking all those questions and, and, posing answers and making through composition and, and really making poetic [00:29:00] and beautiful language with a sextet.

That was different than everybody around him at the time?

JOHN SNELL: Hmm. Wow. this is fun stuff.

And I do wanna get back to the trumpet. Not that none of that related to the trumpet but I’m, I’m curious ’cause obviously you figured out how to play the trumpet, and when we last left off our conversation, you said you were a terrible trumpet player

still. So how did that page turn?

How did you figure it out? Was it a teacher involved

DAVE DOUGLAS: A couple of teachers.

JOHN SNELL: mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: So at Berkeley it was really big. I learned a lot of music and I met a lot of people. My roommate my freshman year was the drummer, Billy Sen, who’s gone on to play with Dave Holland and hundreds of other great artists. And we were both practicing the music from Miles Smiles the practice rooms at the same time.

And, and I realized, okay. people who are really focusing in on the music. So it was great, but it was so big that [00:30:00] I, as a trumpet player, I did fall through the cracks and I was kind of kid who I like to keep my head down and do my own thing. And, you know, I’ll admit I was a little bit of a pot smoker at the time and maybe, don’t know who know, no judgements.

But I was just kind of getting through and I had a trumpet teacher who, and I’m not gonna name his name here on this podcast, but

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: it is public knowledge who taught me for the whole two semesters. And at my last lesson told me, you really just don’t have it. You should quit trumpet and do something else, which really pissed me off.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: really disappointing. you know, I didn’t think this at the time, but in retrospect I feel like wow. That was like a whole school year that you weren’t able to help me and it didn’t occur to you that maybe you could send me to someone else or have that conversation with me earlier and face it [00:31:00] head on.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: So, you know, again, in retrospect at the time it was just, I was pissed and, angry and I felt like, I wonder how many other kids he has said that to over the years. He still teaches there,

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: years later. Anyway, it was my impetus to drop out of Berkeley altogether because New England Conservatory, as you probably know, was only a few blocks away down the road from Berkeley, and I knew that John McNeil was teaching there.

I’d heard good things about him and I also felt like probably New England Conservatory being a conservatory would be more musically rigorous than Berkeley. I didn’t realize at the time that I was just falling through the cracks ’cause I was kind of go along, get along. It was some of that. But I think in my anger I left that lesson and walked down the street to New England [00:32:00] Conservatory and just said, what do I have to do to apply?

And I, it was probably May or June and I managed to transfer my credits and get in for September.

JOHN SNELL: Amazing.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Yeah.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Retrospect, right?

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Life changing.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Life-changing men. And the fact that I was able to act so fast and actually get it done, I don’t even remember how I did it. I had a a, a funny summer in Boston where I practiced eight to 10 hours a day.

I could still get into Berkeley. So I practiced bans all day, every day. And then I had a job at Wendy’s, food restaurant at evenings and nights. And that was my entire summer. I became a vegetarian.

JOHN SNELL: It drove me.

DAVE DOUGLAS: to have a job,

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: And I just practiced all day. And it was infuriating because, I mean, you’re a trumpet player, you know, sometimes the issues are more fundamental than just putting [00:33:00] in eight hours on arban every day.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: So I was, practicing jazz and practicing routine and basics and, and all the things in arban, and I just wasn’t getting better. And it was, it was a real,

how do I want to tragic.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: in my life, you know, I couldn’t imagine a lower trough of this purgatory just practicing all day and not getting anywhere, and then going to work at a fast food joint. It’s really you know, in retrospect, many people have it worse, but at the time, you can imagine, and, and I’m sure anybody listening to this who’s a trumpet player, knows that

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: downward spiral of, oh shit, I really can’t play.

And then of course, that makes it worse. And then you’re like, oh, now I can’t even get a note out. And then the next thing you know, you can’t even play the horn. And

that was, that was kind of terrifying. So when I did finally get to Berkeley, maybe all [00:34:00] those hours at Arban had helped. But the big thing that changed for me, John, was that John McNeil, heard that I had an ear for improvising. Heard that I didn’t have the chops to pull it off, but he could tell that something was there.

JOHN SNELL: like

write off like first lesson?

DAVE DOUGLAS: first

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: he made a deep dark joke, which I will tell here, John is gone now. God bless his soul, so he can’t get canceled for this. But in my first lesson, he put on the JB Aber Soul Backup Band tape had me play along to Stella by Starlight.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: And I was trying to play all my deepest, most sophisticated, heavy stuff.

I can’t even imagine what it sounded like. Thank God there’s no recording that I know of. Anyway, we get to the end and he stops and there’s a long silence and I’m like. he gonna say? And it was like, went on for a long [00:35:00] time. I don’t know if you ever met John.

JOHN SNELL: I think I met him at an ITG at some point years

ago, but yeah. Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: And finally he sighs and he looks at me and he goes, do you know where I can get any heroin?

JOHN SNELL: Oh, geez.

DAVE DOUGLAS: And to this day, I don’t know if he was looking for pharmaceutical advice or it was just that I’d played so bad that he needed

JOHN SNELL: He’s,

DAVE DOUGLAS: I, and I asked him years, you know, I was friends with him for years. I asked

JOHN SNELL: yeah,

DAVE DOUGLAS: later, what did you mean by that? He, he would never, he never gave it up.

JOHN SNELL: He never,

gave it up.

DAVE DOUGLAS: yeah.

JOHN SNELL: Wow.

DAVE DOUGLAS: But I assume it was ’cause I was pretty sad.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: so John. I a method of teaching, bebop teaching, playing over harmony. That was super effective for me, a lot of people I’ve talked to subsequently. John introduced me to the Carmine Caruso method,

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: never even heard of. [00:36:00] So he gave me the six notes, gave me some exercises, I took to it right away.

And I did it religiously. I was used to practicing. I just didn’t know what to practice.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

Eight to 10 hours a day. Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: and then routines clicked. Like within a month, I had chops. I could play consistently above the staff. could execute ideas. just, it was magic for me. After a year of New England Conservatory and John, decided.

Everyone here in Boston, their attitude is, I’m just gonna practice so I can get good enough to move to New York. And I decided even if I move to New York, I’m still gonna have to practice. So I might as well just cut the middleman and just bite the bullet and go. So I, I did, I took a year off and then I moved to New York, got all my credits transferred to NYU, and I was in independent study where I got to [00:37:00] study with Carmine Caruso weekly

JOHN SNELL: Directly.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Yeah,

JOHN SNELL: Amazing.

DAVE DOUGLAS: that’s what, that’s what did it for me was, studying with Carmine and that discipline.

JOHN SNELL: and quitting Wendy’s. Right?

DAVE DOUGLAS: I did quit Wendy’s

JOHN SNELL: Well,

so, I mean, take us through Carmine. I mean, we, we’ve had a few Caruso students on in the past, but I mean, everyone, well, I say everyone knows the six notes. It’s fairly common knowledge. But what I found is everyone had a different experience with Carmine.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Yep.

JOHN SNELL: you remember your first lesson with him?

DAVE DOUGLAS: Oh. I don’t know if I remember the first lesson, but they were all the same. He was gruff. I mean, it was the last two years of his life. I’m, forgetting now, but, you know, he was over 80. He sat in a upholstered chair that looked like it had been there for 60 years. When he first started renting that studio, there was an old sign that said trumpet lessons 25 cents, which think was his first, you know,

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: first put up his [00:38:00] shingle.

He would have on those heavy. Ear coverings that they wear, know, like, on the tarmac at the airport, the guys directing the planes, he had those. And so he would sit in front of trumpet players all day, every day, and he would just wash AERs and you would do his exercises. The only thing that would ever upset him is if you didn’t do the exercise full on all the way to its conclusion.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: If you gave up or if you paused or if you a break or his whole thing was no, you leave the horn on your re until this exercise is through. No matter what happens, whether notes are coming out or not, you’re teaching your body that this is what it’s gonna have to do. You’re not giving it the option to cop out.

And I think that that, you know, he never talked about it this way, but that applied to music to me too. You know, if you’re playing Joy [00:39:00] Spring and you get an idea or something about your chops doesn’t come out, you can’t ask the rhythm section. Hey, could you wait for me to get back to the top? I I’ll be right there.

No, no, no, time goes on

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: of and whatever you think is happening.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: what those exercises meant to me, and they really, they pulled me out. it was about executing notes very strictly in time, tapping your foot, subdividing 16th notes in your head, and then letting the amsu do what it needed to do.

I’ve always had sort of uneven teeth. Especially on the, lower side and trumpet players know, you know, the way your teeth are and the way your lip is has a lot to do with where the omnisure settles. And so I’d always had teachers that, oh, you need to move it this way. Oh, we’re gonna reset your omnisure.

It needs to be higher. No, it needs to be lower. No, it needs to, you know, I went through this so many times. never once [00:40:00] said anything about my Asure. He was just do the exercises. And it started in my studies with John McNeil, but it continued with Carmine that the mouthpiece found its place to where it needed to be.

JOHN SNELL: Hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: And I think it’s still there. And you know, it’s still a struggle. I still do routines based on Carmine’s work every day. I got an update some years later after he passed in 1987. I went for about seven or eight years with no teacher, still doing the last lessons that Carmen had given me. But my needs changed.

I was now on the road playing as a jazz soloist every night, and then during the day I was doing these heavy lifting Carmine Caruso calisthenics, and surprise, surprise, everything fell apart. So that’s when I met Lori Frank, who had been Carmine’s top student and who had developed a [00:41:00] pedagogy of her own that was speaking the same language as Carmine, but it was going some new places.

So she really, this is around 95. I went to Lori for the first time and she dug me out of what was happening with my overuse problems and called me an idiot suitably and.

JOHN SNELL: So how did she, how did she do it? Was it I mean, changing your approach or how you used

the exercises?

DAVE DOUGLAS: by saying your needs are different now than they were a decade ago when you were studying with Carmine.

JOHN SNELL: Okay.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Now you need to teach your chops to relax and warm up and be flexible. And so my routines now are much more just air and buzzing. And I start the day, behind me, there’s a trombone mouthpiece.

I start the day vibrate just vibrating, creating a flexibility.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: muscle bound. A lot of bending exercise. I mean, you’re, I’m sure you have a lot of people who’ve studied with Lori

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: And she was great and her [00:42:00] teaching was very personalized to the individual. So Lori came to quite a few of my gigs.

Gigs that I was playing with people like John Zorn and Don Byron and Tim Byrne and, and my own bands, tiny Bell Trio the String Group. was new music at the time and I was trying to do new things on the trumpet at this point. I’d connected the composing and the playing aspect, but I was doing things that were technically really challenging on the horn.

So she saw what I was doing and developed some exercises to help me, and as it turned out, help a lot of people that were improvising in that

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: high, low, all over the place.

Maximum flexibility.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I [00:43:00] recommend Lori’s book that she wrote with John McNeil. It’s called Flexis,

JOHN SNELL: Yep.

DAVE DOUGLAS: because I think that she, in her introduction and in the words that she wrote, she very, very clearly describes the how and the why of, what she wants the trumpet student to do. And it’s, it’s, effective.

I’ve seen its effect on a lot of people.

JOHN SNELL: we’ve had a lot of folks bring that book up. I’ve, whether they’ve studied with Lori or not, and I

have a copy that I use at home. And fascinating, actually short Lori Frank’s story, the only time I met her was at an ITG. And one of the nice things about an ITG was, I was at the bar after the exhibit hours and somehow a friend of a friend, she came and sat at my table

and then we had a nice conversation.

I got to meet her, and then the friend ended up having to go. And I was there, Laurie and I, for probably two hours

DAVE DOUGLAS: great.

JOHN SNELL: up a storm. And I, you know, I, I’m kind of person, I would never have had the nerve to go up and introduce myself even, and to find her at my table and [00:44:00] just, you know, talk her ear off and vice versa was just an a, I’ll never forget that experience.

That was probably about 20 some odd years ago.

Um, but yeah, Amazing ama, amazing player, amazing teacher. I wished I could have had her on the podcast, you know?

So, speaking of which and I, this is always, I always run into these problems with players like yourself, Dave, because you do so much, you know, we can literally only scratch the surface of your career. I do want to cover that transition ’cause you said okay, you, kind of, I don’t wanna say skip the line, so to speak, but by moving to New York,

DAVE DOUGLAS: Uhhuh.

JOHN SNELL: practicing in town to kind of get your career rolling, what did that

look like? How did you start playing? How did you go from being a student who’s practicing to someone who’s working regularly?

DAVE DOUGLAS: Well, I, I would say to young people thinking about moving to New York, it was really helpful for me to be in school because I had a structure in my life. And also I had a context where I was meeting people. It wasn’t just isolated and trying to go to jam sessions, and I went to jam [00:45:00] sessions. But a lot of the people that I met, in school and I met through gigs that came about.

From friends at NYU. And just started playing. I would meet people and I went to a lot of informal sessions. Daytime, I went to nighttime jam sessions. I practiced a lot and I did what we in New York call club dates, what in Boston was called general business. I’m sure in LA there’s another word for it, know, like weddings and bar mitzvahs and

JOHN SNELL: Casuals. Yeah,

DAVE DOUGLAS: casuals.

JOHN SNELL: Casuals. Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I’ve heard that. Yeah. I did a lot of that and you know, I hated the music most of it at the time, and I was like, okay, I gotta do this to survive. I feel like I learned a lot on those gigs. Just about professionalism, about, how to sound good in any situation. How to try to, no matter how bad you [00:46:00] feel the musical situation is, bring your best, play your best, do your best.

I learned how to play any Madonna song that I had never heard in any key at any time.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I felt like that was your training on a deep level, that I wasn’t gonna get it in any music school

JOHN SNELL: Right?

DAVE DOUGLAS: or so Beam tune, you

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: girl from me in B.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: great. Got it. I think a lot of that is basic musicianship that is hard to learn if you’re not just out there on the job.

I used to play dinner cruises. I would play weddings, bar mitzvahs. I played a divorce once. That was great. Ren fairs, you know, anything,

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: if the phone rang, the answer was yes. And what do I have to wear? And I met a lot of great people who went on to be important creative music colleagues [00:47:00] on those casuals.

And I feel like it made me realize, okay, even though I’m in this place where I don’t know anybody and I’m playing this music that I don’t particularly know or like, and it’s, it’s just a job. Let me be the most musical I can. And I took away a lot of great things from a lot of dark situations. So that would be my advice.

Just

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I’ll tell you a little story. I was on a dinner cruise and you know, we’re going along putt putt putt and we’re playing girlfriend Mima. And we get to the bridge and there’s this ferocious tenor solo and you know, the changes to the bridge and go from Aima, let’s just say they’re a little

JOHN SNELL: Hmm

DAVE DOUGLAS: interesting,

JOHN SNELL: mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: And I turn around and I’m like, who the hell is that? You know? So then on, on the break, I go up and it’s Chris Potter.

JOHN SNELL: Oh,

geez.

DAVE DOUGLAS: what are you doing here? And he looked at me and he goes, what are you doing here? And [00:48:00] then it

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: years later that he was in my quartet and then in my quintet, and we went on to play together.

But I met him playing girl from hip anima on a dinner cruise. So would say to

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: just go to New York and do everything that you can, and you’re gonna. A lot of people and just bring your best to every situation.

JOHN SNELL: You never know who’s gonna be on the gig

DAVE DOUGLAS: That’s right. Or in the audience.

JOHN SNELL: or in the audience. Yeah. So I mean, at what point did your career evolve from doing the club dates to doing your own creative? I mean, was there a point where you jumped over to only doing Dave Douglas stuff

DAVE DOUGLAS: Yeah. It was December 3rd, 1993, John.

JOHN SNELL: Exactly that day?

DAVE DOUGLAS: Yes, I remember it well. So I’d been going along doing a lot of creative stuff and doing the casuals and whatnot,

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: but increasingly I was having more creative work and by that time I was playing with John Zorn and playing with a lot of other people. So in 1993 I did [00:49:00] a tour with John’s band and I had finally gotten.

deal for my own record as a leader Black Saint Soul note label, the Italian creative music label. And I was on one of these casuals and I turned to the saxophone player next to me and I said, you know, this is the last time I’m ever doing this. This is it

JOHN SNELL: That was it.

DAVE DOUGLAS: tuxedo that I never washed out of anger.

And he looked at me and he laughed and he said, okay, that’s great. I’ll see you next Saturday. I went home and I threw away my tuxedo and that was it. I Literally you

again.

JOHN SNELL: you

threw the tuxedo out,

DAVE DOUGLAS: yes. burned the bridge, and

JOHN SNELL: never looked back. I’m not doing that anymore.

Wow.

DAVE DOUGLAS: right. Years later, I bought a really nice tuxedo, but now it was for different reasons.

JOHN SNELL: That’s incredible. And I love that you remember the date, like there.

That was a turning point. Yeah. I remember it was like one day to the [00:50:00] next. I I was working really hard on my own music. You know, I already was leading three or four different bands and I was writing music and studying music and, you know, I’d been through a whole heavy bunch of years of, integrating 12 Tone music with improvisation with transcribing Balkan Brass bands and putting that into a context where we could improvise with it.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Transcribing Booker Little and figuring out what made those fantastic pieces tick and how did they work and how could I apply that to the way we play now 30 years later. And so for me to let the weddings go. I was ready to do it. I knew what it would mean I was prepared and I had enough work to know that I wasn’t gonna let everybody in my life down.

JOHN SNELL: Man, what a, it must have been a freeing, just psychologically. Creativity, yeah. Moment and that was 93, so we’re going on [00:51:00] 30 something years.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Right,

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I feel like though I hated it and I remember to the day when I quit doing it, I’ve now in my creative life had to play in so many different creative situations beyond my control that I feel like that experience having to live at wits end. And pretend play a tune that maybe you’ve never heard in your life or

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: an experience to be able to be cool creative situations where it’s like, wow, okay, here’s something I know now I welcome it.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I always feel like the motivation is like, okay, wow, here’s this person that’s sincere about what they’re doing and I [00:52:00] don’t know anything about it and I don’t understand it. And. Here’s something that I could really like, dive in and figure out what to do. Or as you know, you ever have the feeling like if you’re a soloist and you’re with a new band or a new drummer or a, a new composer and you’re in a situation where you’re on stage and you’re playing solo and you’re suddenly like, my God, I have no idea what to do.

I’m completely at a loss. Right? And yet you can’t fold. You can’t just put the horn down and walk away like you’re on the job.

I found a lot of creative situations I’ve been in have those kinds of challenges. I live for ’em now.

JOHN SNELL: That’s exciting. Oh, I love it. I love it. You, I was gonna say, if we had four more hours, we start going through your discography and I mean, you’ve, I mean, your own, but then also being a a collaborator, not a

side man, but,

DAVE DOUGLAS: new band with the

JOHN SNELL: uh,

DAVE DOUGLAS: that’s coming out, the band’s

JOHN SNELL: yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: and it’s the same thing. I invited Dave Oui and [00:53:00] Alexandra Ridout because I love trumpet players because years ago I had a band with Roy Campbell Jr. And Bike to Carroll. because I, I, wanted to write with the sound of the three horns and not have it be like a high note competition, but you know, warm and rich and harmony and blending and all the beautiful things that we love.

But we get on the gig and we get in the recording and I’m like listening to the two of them thinking, my God, am I gonna play? Like, here comes my solo and Alexandra’s like wrapping up her solo. I’m like panicking inside, which is. Exactly where I wanna be and why I did the project.

I want that pressure of not knowing. I, I want that feeling of nervousness because I feel like now it becomes transmuted into the playing, into the, you know, I’m gonna play with a certain sense of urgency

JOHN SNELL: mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: because she just played [00:54:00] and she’s such a wonderful, creative

on the horn. It’s so special and what Dave Oui does too, you know, it’s, it’s you unique new voice.

And I, I love it. I love to platform it, but I also feel like as a player myself, I like to feel that challenge.

JOHN SNELL: yeah. I’m looking forward to that. That come, that’s coming out in August, correct. Is when it’s gonna

gonna drop or,

DAVE DOUGLAS: is

JOHN SNELL: oh, September

DAVE DOUGLAS: official release date, but

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: up that people can get if they come to Greenleaf music.

JOHN SNELL: We’ll have the links to all that in the description and make sure folks can find that. And for our regular listeners, we had Alexandra on a few episodes ago, and I mean, she is

DAVE DOUGLAS: oh,

JOHN SNELL: an absolute gem.

I mean, I can’t say enough about, about her and I’m, we are scheduled to interview Dave Atmi as well. and I’m sure that’ll be a fabulous interview. I mean, again, what a promising young star. I mean,

DAVE DOUGLAS: And they’re

JOHN SNELL: in a,

DAVE DOUGLAS: composers too, and

JOHN SNELL: yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: these days, I think there’s a value in that that’s really important that they [00:55:00] carrying the tradition of creativity on every level.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm. is that why you chose them for this project

DAVE DOUGLAS: you know, I’ve met them over the years and heard their own groups, and I felt like, only as soloists and

JOHN SNELL: I.

DAVE DOUGLAS: conceptual thinkers, but also as collaborators, as members of ensembles, I feel like that’s a real important skill

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: everyone about, you know, how do you integrate yourself into an ensemble?

And especially for trumpet, I think it’s a challenge to think of, you know, people out there that are playing in quintets or sextets or whatever, as a trumpet, how do you not stand out like a sore thumb? How do you fit in and blend and make your phrases add to what the rhythm section is doing.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: make the feel stronger.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Yeah,

JOHN SNELL: we wanna stick out. It’s my, it’s our nature,

DAVE DOUGLAS: well, there’s a, there’s a time for that [00:56:00] for

JOHN SNELL: and place. Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: but you don’t want to do that all night long, or no one’s gonna call you again.

JOHN SNELL: Exactly. Exactly. thank you so much for your time today,

Dave.

DAVE DOUGLAS: It’s been a great, fun

JOHN SNELL: yeah, we, this is definitely one. We need a volume two at some point to get into the other areas of your career and and Trump a plane. I do wanna bring up the Festival of New Trumpet music.

You found it and are the, the president of Correct. And can you tell us what that festival is, why you decided to create it, and when the next one is?

DAVE DOUGLAS: I created it with fellow trumpeter Roy Campbell Jr. Now sadly, departed

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: some years ago now. But we started it. First of all, because I was invited to curate a venue for a month in, I think it was 2003 with Roy. We had played a gig with the band that was called Alloy from back then.

And I said, Roy, they want me to program 30 nights, two slots a night, what should I do? And he said, well, why don’t you [00:57:00] get all trumpet players? I was like, what? And he was like, yeah, why not? I was like, well, I don’t know if there would be enough creative trumpet players to do it. we got a cocktail napkin, we were still at the bar, and we started writing names of created trumpet players.

And within 10 minutes. had like five napkins full of names, way too many to program for a month. I’d never thought of it that way before. And I said, okay, wow. This is a part of the field that’s a little bit neglected. kinds of people, different kinds of music, not limited to genre. We could do a whole month of just people making new trumpet music.

that be a blast? So we did. And then after it was over, I started getting phone calls, Hey, could I do it next year? And I was like, well, what do you mean next year? And nobody, and then we started doing it annually and we still do. And it’s 22nd season now. And the field has grown and changed and, [00:58:00] you know, there’s a lot more women playing now.

Or maybe it was the same number of women, but they earlier they just weren’t getting presented. I don’t know.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: different kinds of music and all different experimental stuff and modern mainstream stuff, and and Latin, and you name it. And I love it. I think that it on a spiritual level, who’s willing to dedicate their life to playing this crazy hunk of metal is all right in my book.

There’s something really

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: celebrate every trumpet player is different and I try to go hear all of ’em every time we do it. And this year is gonna be another fantastic, year We’ve been celebrating. Creative pioneers For a number of years, we give an award of new trumpet music award of recognition.

We started with Leo Smith but [00:59:00] we flew Kenny Wheeler over one year before he passed and gave him the award. Laurie Frank, got the award. Wilmer Wise, Bradford, Charles Toliver, so living trumpet artists that are still contributing to the field. Randy Brecker, Tom Harrell Jimmy Owens. I’m sure I’m dropping a few, but it’s just goes on and on.

Last year was John Fadi.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: and this year is Ou Dara, who the great corns. So it just feels like, something where I can give back in a field about, which I know a thing or two, how to help. An emerging trumpet player. We’ve commissioned hundreds of players over the years to do original creative stuff.

it’s

JOHN SNELL: Amazing.

DAVE DOUGLAS: path for sure.

JOHN SNELL: But what a way to pass on the torch and like you said, yeah. Start highlighting younger players that are Yeah. Wanna do

the similar things that you, made your career doing and

DAVE DOUGLAS: John, I, I’ll say [01:00:00] something very trumpet. sharing it with you and your listeners because we’re, we’re so trumpet, istic, and if anyone’s made it this far through my interview, then they deserve to hear that in 2003 I had this bad habit of winning a lot of jazz awards for trumpeter of the year.

Composer of the year, but trumpeter for many years.

And I was seen as sort of the left of center, outcast, Avantgarde downtown, for lack of a better word, creative side. And there was a well-known critic who wrote an article saying on the trumpet, there’s either Winton’s or there’s Dave’s. And I felt like, wow, that is really missing the mark.

I never set myself up as some kind of anti Winton Marcellus,

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I know Winton and we are cordial and friendly and there was never any animosity there, but [01:01:00] there was this thing that got built up in the press and I felt like if you really feel like there’s only these two ways to do it, you’re just not paying attention because there are these hundreds, thousands, worldwide trumpet players that are doing.

Unique personal individualistic work. There’s no way to not sound like yourself on this thing ’cause it’s your actual lip that’s vibrating.

JOHN SNELL: Mm-hmm.

DAVE DOUGLAS: So that was another part of the impetus was to, to go against this idea that there’s uptown and downtown

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s astounding, but I’m glad you shared that because it does, put your voice out there. Who cares what the critics say.

DAVE DOUGLAS: people would

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: follow the path where it leads them. Yeah.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Amazing. Well, Dave, it’s been an absolute honor to have you on. Again, thank you for your time. We’ll have all the links to your websites and the font music.org for the festival trumpets, and we’ll have links to the pre-order for alloy with you [01:02:00] and Alexandra and the other Dave, Dave atmi, absolute, absolute honor.

Like I said, before I let you go, Dave if you could leave our listeners with one last piece of advice

that you would consider your best piece of advice

and no, no rules here. It doesn’t be, it doesn’t have to be about trumpet, doesn’t have to be about music, anything you want.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Oh my

JOHN SNELL: what, what would that be?

DAVE DOUGLAS: So I guess this is for trumpeters and civilians.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Boy, that’s a, that’s a tough question.

One piece of advice is to find some time in your day, but every day to work on the creative aspect of whatever it is you’re doing. Whether it’s trumpet playing or a composing, or being an editor, or making a podcast, or building trumpets, There’s always a creative aspect to it that’s beyond the technique and the language and all of that is important, but just take a small moment of every day to work on your [01:03:00] personal, creative aspect of your work.

JOHN SNELL: Absolutely beautiful advice, and you live that advice you know, since I think you were five years old, learning the piano and knowing there was something more, you

know, so.

DAVE DOUGLAS: over the years if you

JOHN SNELL: Yeah.

DAVE DOUGLAS: day.

JOHN SNELL: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Dave. What a, what a treat. I’m can’t wait to meet you in person one of these days.

DAVE DOUGLAS: I would love that.

Thank you. And if you ever decide that you need a round two, you know where to find me.

JOHN SNELL: I’m gonna take you up on that.

DAVE DOUGLAS: Okay. Awesome. Thank you. John.

​

JOHN SNELL: What a refreshing interview that was with Dave and, uh, for a player that’s, so I say well known, but, you know, he’s has his own label. He has his own podcast. He’s, I mean, prolific doesn’t even begin to describe the amount of creativity and content and music and compositions he’s put out in the world.

you know, I knew this was gonna be a special interview just from his first answer where he said he started on piano. Played the piece the first time and then decided to change it. He [01:04:00] started improvising literally from the first days of his musical experience, um, and then went from there. so what a joy, to talk to Dave and thank you so much, Dave, for your time.

I know you had a busy day and he had a, a meeting with his, uh, record label, right after that. And, you know. He’s planning the, the festival of New Trumpet music that’s, uh, happening here in a few weeks, in September he was talking about. So, uh, to squeeze our podcast in. And this interview, meant a whole lot.

so hopefully you, uh, listeners got a lot, uh, out of, his interview. No doubt. Um, so many different things, not just about trumpet, but the journey that Dave took in terms of learning the instrument and the struggles he had. But you know, the deeper conversations about how we define music and label things and, this and that.

So, uh, this is one of those. I’m gonna be listening back to a lot and, we just scratched the surface. So I’d love to have Dave on for a future episode to get deeper into, um, some of these conversations. Or you can listen to his podcast, a annoy from the Deep where he talks. Uh, [01:05:00] he’s got some great trumpet players on there, but.

You know, all, musicians from all walks of life on his podcast, so you can listen to 13 years of his deeper conversations. So anyway, last time. Thank you Dave. Looking forward to meeting you in person sometime. And, uh, I’m gonna actually try to see if I can get a plane ticket out to New York, to attend some of that, uh, festival of new trumpet music here in a few weeks.

Uh, see if, see if the boss will let me outta the shop here. Thank you for listening. We have some really cool podcasts coming up. Um, actually, maybe I shouldn’t say this. Well, I’ve had guests in the past that have announced things on the podcast and then they’re committed to it. But, um, I’m actually having one of our past guests interview me.

Uh, I mean, it’s a little disco. It’s a lot disconcerting. It’s very disconcerting. ’cause I’ve, a number of you have asked out, have reached out through the years and said, Hey John, why don’t you do your own podcast? Just ’cause we’d wanna find out about you. We hear your voice every week or every month. so someone finally twisted my arm.

I, I was gonna be a surprise guest host. but we’re gonna reverse [01:06:00] roles here and, uh, I’m recording the interview next week, so I think in the next few episodes, unless I totally just have a catharsis, uh. You’ll hear me on the other, other side of the bell as a guest. Um, who else do I have coming up? Um, Tim Larkin, who’s a trumpet player, just released an album and also fabulous composer and sound engineer.

Uh, not sound engineer, sound designer for video games and TV and movies and all sorts of things. That’s gonna be a fascinating conversation. We’re doing a little foray into trumpet players that also have other careers or have combined their careers. So of course, Tim plays trumpet and, uh, has a fabulous career as a composer. Greg Curtis, another, uh, friend of mine, fabulous trumpet player out of North Texas, among other places who, uh, ran a recording studio built from the ground up.

And, uh, so also a audio engineer. Ran a, a very high level, uh, studio here in LA for many years. He’s coming up Kate Moore Fab. She just won the Pioneer Award or was given the Pioneer [01:07:00] Award at IWBC from, um, the BBC concert Orchestra. Oh yeah, Lord of the Rings and Planet Earth. All the great trumpet solos in that.

Um, so really great conversation with Kate Moore. Uh, Chris Lebar. You know, a great Reinhardt teacher and fabulous player himself down in Florida. Oh, I’m forgetting some folks here. So, I’m sorry. Bottom line is you need to hit that subscribe button. You need to hit that notification button because we have a lot of great content coming up and you don’t wanna miss out.

All right. Well, thank you for listening, and we will see you next episode. Until next time, let’s go out and make some music.